Episode 7: From Wagon Trails to a National Utilities Corridor: How Canada's Indigenous and Non-Indigenous Communities Can Meet the Future Together, feat. Steven Vaivada

An Indigenous engineer gives his take  on creating a better Canada for all its nations and peoples. Jessica and George chat with Steven Vaivada about the roles and approaches of his company, Scout Engineering & Consulting Ltd.; an emerging vision for a utilities and infrastructure corridor that brings together all perspectives, interests, and communities; and how abandoning stereotypes makes individual lives a lot more difficult—but in a good way.

Transcript

Steven Vaivada: 0:25

I'd say, you know, in a lot of cases, Indigenous, non-Indigenous peoples, when we get together, we have about 90% in common. But there's 10% there which is, you know, what we're here to talk about, is reconciliation, this kind of common understanding, this common language, that needs to be between our groups to create that empathy, right?

Jessica Vandenberghe: 1:00

You're listening to Unsettled: Journeys in Truth and Conciliation, a podcast dedicated to breaking down barriers, undermining stereotypes, and fighting racism. I'm Jessica Vandenberghe, and my cohost is George Lee.

George Lee: 1:25

So our guest today is Steven Vaivada, who talks about his work with Indigenous communities through his company, Scout Engineering and Consulting Ltd.; his personal connection to his business, and his approach to working with Indigenous communities; what it means to really care about your clients; collaborative wisdom; technological stewardship; understanding and sharing knowledge. We talk about the C2C2C Unity Corridor and what that could mean for Canada. What good infrastructure can mean for a community and its people, especially its children; counteracting stereotypes; parents as role models and mentors; training and breaking through the myth that there's a simple technical solution to every problem; and quite a few other things. But before all that, here's Jessica with a land acknowledgement.

Jessica Vandenberghe: 2:21

Currently, I'm situated on the traditional territory of Treaty 6, and we stand upon a land that carries the footsteps of and hearts of many First Nations, Mtis, and Inuit people that have been here for thousands of years and many generations. And I'd like to acknowledge our and their relationships with Mother Earth. It is an interconnected relationship, as we're all relations and have an obligation to respect that this land has nourished and healed, protected, and embraced us. And we are grateful to the Indigenous peoples that have been stewards of this interconnected relationship. We are all relations and as such, we all respect each other in our beliefs, but also our own individual relationships with Mother Earth. And so for my heart and spirit to yours, and all those who are listening, I'd like to open up this podcast in a good way. Steve is definitely a very passionate person. And I'm glad that we finally have been able to partner on a few things more solidly because I know we've been crossing paths for many years. I'm very excited that he's on here as a guest. Steven is the president of Scout Engineering and Consulting Ltd., his Indigenous-owned-and-operated company based in Standoff, Alberta, on the Kainai First Nation. Steve established Scout in 2017 to work holistically and collaboratively with Indigenous communities and their government and corporate partners. He's also experienced in the government side of the equation, having been responsible for the delivery of infrastructure projects across Treaty 6 and Treaty 7 as a senior engineer with Indigenous and Northern Affairs Canada, now called Indigenous Services Canada. Before that, Steven was with Amec Foster Wheeler, most recently as national Indigenous business lead. And he's also been a project manager and project engineer with Dillon Consulting Ltd. and he's had a few other gigs since graduating from the University of Calgary Schulich School of Engineering with a bachelor of science degree in civil engineering. He also studied environmental engineering technology and environmental technology at Schulich School of Engineering. The projects that Steven has been involved in conjure up somewhat of a roadmap of Alberta's First Nations and other communities, from Frog Lake to Maskwacis to Siksika to Carseland to Salt River and to a little town called Calgary. You've definitely been a few places, Steven. And through it all, you've been developing your philosophy of the power of infrastructure and respectful and effective collaboration to transform Indigenous communities. So welcome, Steven.

Steven Vaivada: 4:47

That was wonderful. And yeah, it's always interesting to hear somebody read back your work, and what you, where you've been.

Jessica Vandenberghe: 4:57

You've definitely had a varied path and I know that how you and I have met, that we've crossed paths in the engineering world at Indigenous conferences. And lately we've been partnering to help with some of the Indigenous communities with some of the consulting work that we've been doing together. Is there anything that you want to add to the bio that we missed? Anything else you want our listeners to know about you?

Steven Vaivada: 5:20

Well, you know, I think you guys maybe I'll let you in on a little secret was, you know, this isn't the first company I ever started, I actually ran a bit of a wedding DJ business for a while. And, and that was, that was a lot of fun. I had a really good time and ended up getting into a bit of event promotion with my friends. You know, it was more of an avant garde, arts-focused, take on what you know, a music event party might be, but yeah, certainly informed my approach to starting businesses and being a little bit more artistic than your average engineer.

Jessica Vandenberghe: 5:59

That's kind of funny, because last night, I actually was watching The Wedding Singer. So when you said that what pops up in my head is Adam Sandler in The Wedding Singer.

Steven Vaivada: 6:09

I had my moments for sure. Yeah.

Jessica Vandenberghe: 6:12

And so maybe you want to tell us a little bit about your journey growing up? Because we understand that you grew up with one parent that was Indigenous, and one that was non-Indigenous, and maybe chat a little bit about that.

Steven Vaivada: 6:25

Yeah, so I'm very grateful for my parents. My mom is from the Blood Reserve. So down south by Fort Macleod, that's where she grew up was in Fort Macleod. She was the youngest in the family of quite a big family. And we had tons of aunts, uncles, cousins around us all the time growing up. But my mom didn't really have too many opportunities. And she could see that by staying around there. She was the youngest and had to kind of make her own way. And so she moved to Edmonton shortly after graduating. And met my dad. He was an engineer at Indigenous Services, which was, you know, at the time, if you go way back, it was Aboriginal Affairs and Northern Development Canada. And he was an engineer there. And he was in that job for forever. But they lived in Edmonton until I was 15. And then we moved to Hig River. And then eventually, ended up in Calgary, and I'v been in Calgary for the past 2 years, but my. .. . .you know, my parents and my upbringing are quite a gift. You know, my mom going out and seeking opportunity. You know, she's such a strong person, she's been a huge influence, I want to honour her because she is somebody I consider a huge role model and somebody who was fearless and has always been fearless, and has really given me that sense of fearlessness, I would say. And then my dad was always the engineer at Indigenous Services that was invited to sit on the the First Nations side of the table. He would, he'd have such a good relationship he'd have done so many good works over his time there that he was considered to be part of the Nations' team. He would help them, guide them and give them some great advice on the issues that they were confronting. And, and I'd benefit greatly from his, his good name. He's a great example of somebody who, with Out of that, I ended up going to university like you alluded to, at the U of C, where, for me, I don't know about you, Jessica, what you can do in this world, do good deeds. And he's always you probably had a better go of it than me. But you know, I, I been somebody I consider as a gr at role model of a parent, of a had a bit of a roller coaster there. I survived it. It took me engineer, and somebody to try t be more like. So, you know, a few extra years than maybe was on the schedule. But you know, that's a big learning too. And that that was hat's, those are my role odels. And because of that, I'm another massive piece to who I am today, where persistence, you ternally grateful. know, having other pursuits along the way and being engaged and present led to, you know, some great relationships. I met my wife, we, you know, enjoyed our time here in Calgary ever since that moment, and it's been such a positive influence. I've really made my home here. And you know, I go down south quite often, obviously my business is situated on the Blood Reserve, but we do a lot of work here in Calgary and all points north. So it's been a journey. It's kind of fun to look back on it and imagine, you know, how you get here. And you could never imagine where you're going to end up. And it's very exciting.

George Lee: 10:05

It sounds to me when you say that, that this focus of Scout Engineering and Consulting really represents who you are.

Steven Vaivada: 10:13

I would say so, I think it's a combination of so many influences. Starting a business without having a parent who is an entrepreneur takes that fearlessness, takes that drive and that determination to do the work that you have, you wouldn't have been able to do in other circumstances. So that experience of being around my parents and their influence on me definitely is formative and, and then yeah, there's been some great, you know, other mentors along the way. I was involved in a group that is now called the Human Venture Institute, used to be Leadership Calgary. Their perspective, their unique take on how we solve our problems today. It's a very personal business, it's definitely I would say something that is an extension of who I am. And I can be very proud of that. But it's also a bit nerve racking, sometimes. When the business doesn't land, we try to do good. And clients and the Nations that we work with have so many issues they're dealing with, you know. We're just one of many people in there, trying to do positive things. And so it's always a challenge to separate yourself out from the business, when it is such an extension of yourself and kind of a realization of your, your life's purpose, almost, I would say,

Jessica Vandenberghe: 11:44

I found that as well, especially when I work as a consultant for another firm for a while, that working with the communities was extra meaningful to me because it was personal. But the stress of it was also larger, because it is personal. And the relationships that you have with the people in the communities are deep and they're personal. And the stories that they share with you are hard to hear, of the injustices and the things that just aren't fair. And the amount of bureaucracy, as you know, especially having worked for ISC in the past and seeing some of these things, and have been helping your clients work through all the red tape that has to go to just to get funding and to be heard and to be listened and to have a seat at certain tables and things like that.

George Lee: 12:45

You're listening to Unsettled: Journeys in Truth and Conciliation. I'm George Lee, my cohost is Jessica Vandenberghe. And our guest is Steven Vaivada.

Jessica Vandenberghe: 13:09

This idea of community, this idea of collaboration and respectful, holistic approach, you're trying to build into every aspect of your company. Maybe you want to talk with us a little bit about about your approach.

Steven Vaivada: 13:23

Yeah, thanks. And, again, that's informed by all these different mentors and leaders. And I'm not just talking about, you know, my parents, I'm talking about the engineers that have trained me up and shown me what a practising engineer looks like, acts like, how they conduct themselves and to have a high standard. And so bringing that to that idea of community being so rigorous about it has been really helpful, because it's helped me to distill what we do. And it's not just a personal thing, like, I could say, it's all about me, and I'm the straw that stirs the drink. But I don't think that's really helpful. I'd like to put it down on paper and it was always a goal, was to say, you know, what is it that I bring in my perspective? And how can we put that down, articulate that and hopefully have other people bring that to their work? Because I think it's, it's not that I have some genius expertise on the subject or I'm especially smart or gifted, it's just, I really care. And I love my clients, I deeply love them. I've told them that, like it's like working with my aunts and uncles, my cousins, my elders. I love it. This last week, for instance, I had an elder share a story about our Blackfoot history, and it was extremely moving. And a real highlight for my career to be in a situation where I'm an expert, and being given the opportunity to learn from our community experts, our elders, our knowledge keepers, in a manner that helps to move our entire engineering profession forward. You know, if I can bring that experience to people who are Indigenous, non-Indigenous, I think that's what's gonna, that's what's going to change the world. It's not me, but it's going to be the people I work with, and the people that I bring into the company who bring their talents and their passion to it. And if I can give them that kind of experience, I think that's what's gonna create amazing innovations and amazing moments for people that they'll carry with them for the rest of their lives. And, you know, how do we do that, right, and you want to put it down on paper, but it's so difficult. So you almost have to create a few kind of new terms. And, and so we have these kind of three guiding principles to Scout Engineering and how we do our business. First principle is what I call technological stewardship. And that's how do we use technology to make the world a better place? And specifically, how do we do that for Indigenous peoples? Because they're not testing the Google self-driving car on reserve roads. So how is this technology going to benefit our people, if, you know, we can't use these technologies in our own communities? Internet connectivity is so poor in communities that it's almost impossible to deliver online curriculum, or to, you know, have done this kind of distance learning. During this pandemic, it's it's been really unfortunate to know that that's a challenge that's been out there and and our communities, again, taking it very personally, our communities are not receiving the same benefit of the technology that we have available to us. And so that's our first principle, is technological stewardship. And the second principle is a term called trust consulting. And that's how do we create empathetic engagements between people who may not believe they have much in common, but we're human. And we have a lot of the same desires and needs, we want a better future for our children. We want to feel secure, we have our, our needs, Maslow's hierarchy, right? We need our shelter, we need our food, we, we have a lot in common. I'd say, you know, in a lot of cases, Indigenous, non-Indigenous peoples, when we get together, we have about 90% in common. But there's 10% there which is, you know, what we're here to talk about, is reconciliation, this kind of common understanding, this common language, that needs to be between our groups to create that empathy, right? As a person with Indigenous parents and non-Indigenous parents, I don't get to pick sides. And that's been really beneficial. But it's also put me in, in spots where I get beaten up with both sticks, right? Where I'm, I'm considered to be maybe not as Indigenous as other people, if there's a measuring stick out there that people are using, but I'm also on that Indigenous side of the equation, when I'm working with the non- Indigenous business community. It's helped me greatly, and I believe, you know, an unused knife dulls quickly. And so I get to work on both sides of this. And it's provided this opportunity that has been hugely beneficial. And I think that's an opportunity that everybody could have, if we go through this process of trust consulting, this empathy, and engaging with each other in this kind of understanding manner. And so the last guiding principle of the company is the And our indigenous communities learn from the non indigenous most powerful, it's actually the origin of the whole company. And everything I'm doing is the idea of collaborative wisdom. It's how do we learn from Indigenous communities, in the business communities, the things that the things that would be helpful to world and in our engineering practice? Because I believe that that's the future of our country is when we have this exchange of knowledge, of wisdom. them, right, you know, how do we use engineering and business acumen to maintain our traditional ways of life? We're underrepresented in so many fields, in so many professions, you know, we have to fix that, we have to learn from each other. And I think that's something that could set Canada ahead for you know, our next 100 years, is if we get that right, if we have that exchange of knowledge and wisdom between the two groups. And you know, this could apply to any diverse group. If we try to learn from each other. Really, I think the principles I'm talking about are all very human ideas. But again, the most powerful one is this idea. We can learn from each other. If we would come together and collaborate with this kind of idea of collaborative wisdom.

George Lee: 20:04

That sounds a lot like the need for diversity on corporate boards, diversity in organizations, diversity in professions, diversity and technical skills everywhere. That seems to be a really important thing that brings better decisions because of the perspectives that are represented.

Jessica Vandenberghe: 20:28

You're listening to Unsettled: Journeys in Truth and Conciliation, a podcast that compiles stories from settler and Indigenous people, as we move forward in the Calls to Action for Canada. I'm Jessica Vandenberghe, and my cohost is George,

George Lee: 20:52

You can be a better community, if you have the support of better physical things in your life. We've got a situation where a lot of the reserves don't even have good Internet connectivity. And that's considered basic infrastructure in most of our lives.

Steven Vaivada: 21:07

Again, because I take the work so personally, I think, over time, spending time on the reserve, spending time in the city, building infrastructure all over the place, I really got to get a feel for the disparity in the infrastructure in our First Nations communities, and Indigenous communities generally. You know, Mtis communities have a lot of the same issues. I imagine that the Inuit communities up north are in a lot of the same, and they're having a lot of the same challenges. But I think one perspective that we don't think about when we think about roads, water, the buildings, is the psychological effect that it has on the people, when it's so stark going from one side of the line to the other, which is this reserve boundary, you know. The origin and the reserves and how they can be they will, the way they are is kind of an unknown story, you know. The infrastructure was built out not to provide the same level of service and quality of life as the neighbouring communities. But kind of just a more of a means of addressing kind of the basic issues facing the communities, kind of lack of access to hospitals, and Aboriginal roads in those communities were built as wagon trails. And so over time, they've degraded because they were never imagined to carry heavy traffic or the traffic associated with economic development and, and manufacturing or oil and gas. This created this situation where you will come onto a reserve and you'll know that you're on the reserve, you're gonna, you're gonna feel it because you're, you know, your car is gonna get beat up the moment you hit the reserve road. You know, one very stark example. I had in a community I was doing road repair project. And I was driving around and I got off the reserve. And I was driving on the municipality roads next to the community. And I turned aroun and I looked back, and it was like a scene out of a Disney princess movie, where it's like you're staring down a black forest, because the trees hadn't been cut back, the ditches hadn't been cut, you know, there's standing water in the ditches and the road looks again like a rotted-out wagon trail. You know, it just, it couldn't have been more stark, the difference and that where that line is crossed. I believe that it has an impact on the people, mentally and physically, right, where there's poor drinking water, there's dust in the air from the roads, buildings have maybe been neglected. So the heating and air conditioning is intermittent. There's mould issues in a lot of communities. How can that not impact a child who grows up looking out their window, thinking, well, this is what I deserve. Right? That's, that's a lot of that's been a lot of our own story is this kind of take charge of yourself, be in charge yourself, you're a self-made person. You know, I don't believe that. Personally, I've been very fortunate, again, with my parents and my upbringing, a lot of advantages I've had, or just been very, very fortunate. That kind of story of it's all on you. And then looking out and seeing, well, these are the things that you deserve, right, these poor roads, this bad water. I think it has a mental impact on our youth in our communities. And so I really see it as not just provision of clean water and having safe roads to drive on where you don't have to worry about ending up in the ditch when it rains because the road turns into a pool table. You know where you're sliding all over the place. I think it actually has a mental, it creates a mental barrier, a mental block, and our people, we oftentimes don't think we deserve nice things. And so I think that's, that kind of thought doesn't occur to many engineers. But I hope it does eventually get there where we see that connection, right? That ability to change minds, change lives, with our work, beyond just providing that clean drinking water, which should be a right and should be there. But we can actually have people have a more positive self perception about that.

Jessica Vandenberghe: 25:24

So definitely it's on the mind of me as an engineer as well. And I think that's why we align a lot of our values at this idea, the idea like the Seven Sacred Teachings, I think about them a lot, right, and that these can be tied into engineering and engineering approach. And I think it's important to mention, as well, I know, you painted a picture of what the reserves look like. And for many, there's a reality there. But we also need to paint the picture a little of what you said in the beginning too, that there are good people, and that there are good stories as well. There's values that just inspire the people, Indigenous people to keep going. Like there's still a belief in family, that's one of the best things I always loved about going to the reserves is that people gather around food and they gather around ceremony. And there's still so much laughter like just out- loud, big-belly laughter, right, and the love of dancing and things like that. So one of the things I know we want to do with this podcast is also dispel some of the stereotypes that are out there. Do you want to talk about some of the myths and stereotypes perhaps that you'd like to share some stories about to counter,

Steven Vaivada: 26:42

The stereotypes are many, and they're deep. And, and some of them are very deep and hurtful. You know, the idea that Indigenous peoples are lazy. I mean, Lord, my mom, I mean, she went pretty far away from her home, she moved to Edmonton, she cut herself off from her family, to have a better life for her kids. And, you know, that caused so much of a burden on her. I honour her by driving, by trying as hard as I can, by not giving up and that's what's possible. That's, you know. . .. . . the idea that Indigenous people are lazy is that's like saying white people are greedy. I don't, I don't, I don't belie e in stereotypes. I don't belie e in in these kind of preconceiv d notions about people, you ha e to embrace the, the luck, t e circumstance, the context, a l the nuance that people have. No one imagines that they re a villain in their own stor. Everybody thinks they're doin the right thing. You know, I think some of those stereotypes are almost there to make people feel better about not caring, or they think it makes their lives easier. When I think it, in the end, if you're ever confronted on your preconceived notion, stereotypes, or your, your, the way that you think of the world, it can be very, it can be very disruptive, it can throw people into all kinds of chaos. You can either recoil and go back to your stereotypes and kind of brush stuff off as fake news or, you know, but it can also lead to like a big kind of spiraling, where you just don't know, you don't know what's real anymore. I think the stereotypes are extremely harmful. And the lazy stereotype just holds no water at all, once you kind of look at the the heights that Indigenous people can achieve and, in business and science. And Jessica, you're a great example. And somebody I admire in terms of your accomplishments as an engineer. You know, you could look at me and say, Well, you know, is that, which side of you is this that gives you this advantage? Like, these stereotypes are so pervasive. People say, well, he's only doing it because he's got a non-Indigenous parent or he's only doing this Indigenous work because he has an Indigenous parent. And it just it tears everybody down. And the stereotype of yeah, of white people being greedy. Let's let's look at that, because I think the reverse racism from Indigenous peoples to look at white people as a monolith is is also very hurtful. You know, my wife is not Indigenous, my kids are, are they don't have a extremely dark complexion. And they're the Indigenous kids in the class. You know, why? Why do we put this label on when it just serves to kind of put yourself in a prison? You know, saying white people are greedy, is almost like saying, I can't, I can't achieve something because I'm not white, or like, I can't be successful, or it can just be used in so many really self-destructive ways. I just I just find it very limiting. I really, you know, discourage that idea of making life easy. Like, if you're, if you're artificially making life easy for yourself by putting people in boxes, by explaining away, you know, how somebody ends up on the street or how somebody ends up being successful by their race or by their gender or by their sexual orientation. You're making your life easy when it, and when we need to take on more responsibility. And we need to, in a way, challenge ourselves and make it a little harder. Because when you are confronted with something that challenges that stereotype, you're not equipped to understand it, and to interpret it properly, which is that circumstance, context, luck, your upbringing, the opportunities you have in front of you, I think it cuts us, it cuts us so deep both ways when we use these stereotypes, so I think you can pull out any stereotype out of the, out of the bin and look at it and say, you know, it's, it's a thing, which when you carry it, it's, it's carry, it's dragging you down.

Jessica Vandenberghe: 31:09

You're listening to Unsettled: Journeys in Truth and Conciliation, a podcast of ideas, solutions, and respectful conversations. I'm Jessica Vandenberghe. And my cohost is George Lee.

George Lee: 31:33

I think there's that comfort level you talked about, is that it allows people to just put something in a box that they don't have to worry about, like, OK, this is what I believe; therefore, my way is, is better and I'm right, and I can go through through living my life. And then they have to have the exceptions. So then, then they meet an Indigenous person who had who happens to work with them, or they're, they're in in any kind of a chance relationship. And then they have to start making these exceptions. And they go well, except for that one. The more we break down that barrier of stereotyping, the better it is for everyone. And it stops us from thinking that there's one solution to everything too. Things aren't monolithic, and, and accepting other viewpoints and other people for them having intrinsic worth as human beings, regardless of what their cultures and upbringings are, that's what I want to see, in Canada, probably someday after I'm no longer here, there will be something maybe approaching that.

Steven Vaivada: 32:40

Well, I think that people are coming at it from a lot of different angles, and they, they all have their own story as part of that. So then they end up, they end up coming at it from a lot of really personal places. So you have people that come at it from their lived experience, and they, they have an event that really triggers their want to learn. And that you know, I think there's also an awareness that's increasing about it, which is leading to more of those experiences, right, where.. .. . .you know, the stories of the lady in Quebec, who passed away in the hospital, right, that that strikes a lot of people very personally. Becau e she was a mother. And she h d, you know, she just went into he hospital and she she passe away. Right. So it's based a lot, I think, on that brush Is it OK if we jump to some of the awareness training roles ng up against it and peopl's lived experience. So it's ot, it's not something you conf ont in everyday life. It h s to sort of be put in front of ou, before people will engage ith it almost. that you've had? Yeah. So we, as a company will do awareness training for specifically for engineers and technical roles. People who are working with communities that maybe don't have that background. Part of it is trying to put ourselves in the shoes of the people that we're training, who've never been on a reserve and don't, don't have maybe a person in their life that is Indigenous and openly Indigenous, or they've maybe never been to a cultural event, like a powwow or to a feast or to a sweat. And so we're trying to be sensitive and meet people where they are. And so the myths, I think, are primarily based around the stories that we tell ourselves. And so when we go into these situations where the technical professionals, people who are trained to look for technical solutions, because they've been put through the traditional engineering world, they've worked for clients who are not Indigenous, they're may working for a government entity, a private corporation or, you know, a local municipality. You know, not everybody has a chance to work with Indigenous communities. You're kind of confronting a lot of different myths and stories that people use. For example, you know, the idea that you can solve a lot of problems with technology. One of the issues that communities face is this idea of clean drinking water. And we have to work with our trainees and the people who are going through our program to understand where does that come from? Why is clean drinking water an issue and why simple solutions don't work. When you say, you know, a community doesn't have clean drinking water, first thought is to jump to the water treatment plant, or the source water, you know, are you pulling it out of a dirty creek or a pond, where there's poor water quality to begin with? Is the plant operating efficiently? Is the operator trained and given the tools they need? That's, that's I think we're most engineers would jump to right away. But we have to work with people to have them understand that there's so many other systems at play. The way that the housing is built,is sometimes so poor, in some communities, they're building their homes out of plywood and insulation. So you can't run water into those homes, or the homes have such poor interior conditions or such poor moisture, kind of reduction, of dehumidification, because there's eight or nine people in a home, where, you know, having the running water just deteriorates the home so quickly, because it's overcrowded, and the ventilation can be very poor. So you could be making things worse, in some cases. But you know, everybody should have running water, everybody should have, you know, safe housing. But that does not come into the mind of a lot of professionals. They, you know, they're used to solving things in a certain way. And it requires that we bring people to this place where they come to understand that their solution, their technical solution, is going to be hindered by these other systems that come into play. So as a professional engineer, they are going to have to, or a technical professional, whatever they might be doing, they're going to have to bring in this awareness of these other systems at play, to deliver a functioning solution. And so, the myth of problems being able to be solved by technology, when, in reality, most of the problems confronting Indigenous communities are people problems, their systems problems. The way the federal government delivers infrastructure to First Nations is problematic, you know. That's what we're trying to provide people is that awareness of kind of their bias or the way they've been trained. But also the place where the their Indigenous clients or the people that they're working with on a major project that are in an Indigenous community, where are they coming from. Because there's a kind of a myth, that the other person on the other side of the negotiating table, or the other side of the boardroom, is speaking the same language, just because you're in the same vicinity. So, you know, we try to help people understand that, just because you're speaking English, or you're working on the same problem, or you're staring at a drawing, it doesn't necessarily mean the same thing to everybody in the room. You know, the idea of creating a new water treatment plant, and you wonder why the community mig t not be so excited. Well, the know that their piping and dis ribution is in such poor con ition that it's really not goi g to help them too much. So the r really joyous momentous occas on of opening the new water reatment plan kind of falls lat for them. Because they k ow they've got half a dozen ther issues to fix, too. So here's a lot of myths. There' a lot of stuff that people re doing that's great around cultural awareness. But our focu is on that bridging tha technical, with this systems idea. And that understandin of these communities, right?

Jessica Vandenberghe: 39:07

So much of it that ties all together too, because I know, because I agree with you, having worked in the infrastructure world for a little while too. General public don't always understand what infrastructure is. People don't sit around thinking, oh, what's underneath the ground? Oh, there's electricity lines and telecommunication lines. And they don't think about where their wastewater goes or how they get their drinking water, they just take for granted that it's at their house, and that they can run their computers and do online learning and all these things. And then you have also combined with that, that engineering is also an invisible profession. A lot of people don't really know what engineering is. And then you layer on top of that the difficulty that Indigenous communities have because there's a number of different systems that you have to navigate that a community like a municipality or county wouldn't have to navigate. How the funding's done, as you mentioned. But also how decisions are made, as well as the politics work differently. There's a lot run by families, there's a lot of decision making that's done in a consensus, collaborative way, rather than the ways that the Government of Alberta chooses to run their government systems. And jurisdiction always comes up for First Nations as well. Do we work with the federal government? Do we work with the provincial government? Or do we create our own governance, in our own legislation, and our own constitution? And how do we go do that? And, and so then, need gets sidetracked by all these conversations around, well, whose problem is it? Whose decision is making it? Who's paying for it? And that's the whole conversation that happe ed for Jordan, when Jordan's Principle came about. I mea, that little boy died, becaus all these conversation were going on while he was waiting for proper medical care And that's not right. And i's the same with infrast ucture problems. While governm nts and lawyers and everybo y argues around who's paying or what and whose jurisdi tion and did we involve the rig t people and all that, in the eantime, infrastructure is dete iorating, and people aren't etting their drinking water j st as one of many example. And it's, and it's a shame. And what I like is that your company understands and walks in both worlds. Same with me, the things that we've partnered on, we've walked in similar worlds, we know how to navigate this space. And the one project that we partnered on lately, is the C2C2C Unity Corridor. Because we are excited. I know, I'm excited that this project is approaching Indigenous collaboration differently than it has in the past. And so maybe you want to chat a little bit about that.

Steven Vaivada: 41:51

Thanks. Yeah. And, you know, I think it's been such a wonderful group to get involved with the leadership team that's trying to build this grassroots coalition across the country, in every province, in Indigenous communities. And you know, and I think, in a group that is maybe kind of lost in a lot of the shuffle, the urban Indigenous community, you know, of which you and I, and, and some other people are in there. What the C2C2C Unity Corridor Foundation is, it's a group of people who believe that our country is capable of great things. Fundamentally. And the way that that plays out is that we can work, Indigenous communities, the non-Indigenous community, the business community, the government, and the environmental advocates, we can all work together to build our 21st century future as a country and and that looks like the very unsexy term for it is a multimodal utility corridor. Right? What is that? It's a, it's a width of land, you know, it could be as wide as 10 kilometres, as narrow as one kilometre. But it carries the digital infrastructure, the power transmission infrastructure, the transportation, trade, rail, all of the new infrastructure, you know, drone flight paths, and who knows what else we're gonna have, self-flying, self-driving flying cars, whatever we're gonna have in the next century. But, you know, how do we bring that into the the middle third of our country? Right, that kind of the northern borders of our provinces? And how would we do that, given our current, political, environmental, like all these converging issues and wicked problems that we've got? How could you ever get something like this off the ground? And that's what's really remarkable about this. And I think the secret sauce, what's going to get us there is, is the empathy and the care of the people involved, where they've engaged me to help them to collaboratively engage with Indigenous communities. And I'm extremely proud to serve with them. And you know, we're we're working on some really exciting stuff around trying to build up the capacities of the people who are going to have the 20- and 30-year careers to build out this corridor. We don't have lines on a map yet. I think that's, that's maybe something that was the way that things were done in the past, where we would we would have done the engineering, we'd have laid out the lines on the map. And then we would have gone to the Indigenous communities and said, Hey, we want to build this. What do you think? And those days are gone. Sorry to say, I don't think that's ever going to be something that's going to work when we're talking about these sort of national projects. That was something that we've seen with the pipelines, with other developments, you know, hydro projects have come under fire recently. There's just so many different large projects that have this oversized impact on Indigenous communities, because we're talking about these kind of remote hinterland areas. And that's where we live. That's where our Indigenous peoples are. We've said that we need to build this grassroots coalition of businesses, of non- governmental organizations, of individuals like you, Jessica, like me, anyone who sees this positive vision of Canada, and believes in that, and that we are capable of great things, that we can stand tall on the world stage and do something which is beyond our current ambitions. Beyond what anyone would say is possible. That we're still capable of that as a country. And so that's what the C2C2C Unity Corridor is all about. If you believe in that, then you know, I encourage you to look us up and sign up to be a part of our newsletters, our informational sessions. You know, we're gonna have a series of webinars coming out soon, where we bring in experts on various topics, of national security of energy, you know, what this might look like. And it's very exciting. It's a lifetime project, I can see, it won't ever be complete, until maybe I'm 80. And, and that's an amazing thing to say, right? That's, I think, this collaborative wisdom, in business and engineering, we an learn from the Indigen us perspective to say, we need to do the things today, which o r, you know, our future descenda ts will be proud of, and to h ve that mindset of the future. And so, you know, I believe in it, I'm fully embracing this idea. And, and I think, you know, it's gonna be something that you hear more and more about. The government's talking about it in different terms, you know, these utility corridors. You know, I know our approach, being from the grassroots, being built from the people, and keeping Indigenous communities front and centre and all of that. I think that's the way to do it.

George Lee: 47:20

You're listening to Unsettled: Journeys in Truth and Conciliation. I'm George Lee, my cohost is Jessica Vandenberghe. And our guest is Steven Vaivada.

Steven Vaivada: 47:42

Yeah, so, I'm the Indigenous collaboration lead. I'm also a director in the organization, which, you know, is part of the leadership team, right. So, you know, I work with the various teams and the communications groups and kind of fundraising groups, I'm sort of spread out across a lot of different engagements there across the organization. And so we're always having these kind of strategic sessions, where we're looking at, you know, what's most important, right. Bringing people on board and finding that blind spot we might have, and it's very exciting. We're bringing on some fantastic Indigenous ladies. One lady's name is Delilah Mah. You know, she's a very dynamic person that I've, I've enjoyed being a part of her events that she's organized in the past around Indigenous business and, and that type of thing. And so she's helping us with our, our event organizing, and so she's, she's wonderful. So I'm also trying to find the talent to come into our organization to address these, these needs that we have. But then on the Indigenous collaboration side, it's really the vision of, you know, we have this want and desire to bring indigenous communities into our organization, but how do we do that? Right? You know, how do we, how do we keep that in mind when we're talking about it, and the way we're trying to be respectful, trying not to, you know, make this a consultation and engagement exercise. It's not. It's, we're a long way from ever having lines on a page. We need to have the conversations, have the deep discussions where we understand each other. You know, it's that trust consulting, where we got to, we got to create these empathetic engagements. And so that, you know, that, again, is bringing these new concepts into the group, having them, you know, kind of bloom in their own way. Where, you know, now, part of what we're trying to do is to develop these capacity development programs where community leaders can come in and learn what this corridor looks like, what might go in there, to Jessica's point, what is infrastructure? Where does it go? How do you put it in? Some of this stuff, it's quite overwhelming. Like even I have a hard time conceiving of how we're going to build this all out and what's the sequence and what comes first and where does it go. You know, we have to build up the leaders in the communities and we also have to, again, create the talent pool from those Indigenous communities, that's going to go out and, and monitor the impact on wildlife, that's going to have the community planning. As you know, we have this climate refugee crisis. Where are those folks gonna go, right? You know, we're building out the frontiers of the country again, and it should be led by those communities. And to do that we need to train up their youth, train their people to take on leadership roles and to guide us as we go into their territory. Because we are blind, and we need their eyes, and we need their wisdom. Otherwise, you know, our solutions and our engineering principles are going to fall on their face.

George Lee: 50:43

That really brought home what what the difference between past approaches has been, and what future approaches or current approaches can be, to actually working in partnership with the many communities and nations that make up Canada. I think that's just brilliant. It seems to be a step away from. ..when you said, the way you put it. Before we even put lines on a page, this collaboration begins. And it's not just foisting something on a community in a paternalistic way, frankly, that says, This is what we've decided for everybody, it's in your own best interest. But now we're going to talk to you a little bit about it and see what you think. And then it becomes this whole situation that I've seen played out in all kinds of communities through my career is, Here it is, what do you think? And the idea being, We've invested so much in this, you know, we're only going to tweak it at this point anyway. But let's hear what you have to say. People see through that, interestingly enough, and it seems like this is something more, well, to use your word, it's an holistic approach to the whole idea of developing the nation in a, or moving forward as an as a nation.

Steven Vaivada: 51:56

I'm glad he brought that up, because I think one of the ways that that older approach ended up playing out was there's a lot of wasted effort. There's a lot of frustration. I've met people who worked on a lot of these projects, who, you know, they wear the battle scars. It's, you know, the lines on their face, you know. It almost comes out of their pores, the passion they had for those projects, and then, you know, they never, they never landed, right. Pipelines, railways, whatever it might have been, that people really sunk their lives into and put years and blood and sweat and tears into it. To me, that's a waste. That's one of the worst things we can do in our work, is to create this waste and lost opportunities, right? You know, the Indigenous communities are confronting so many issues. Even a project of this scale barely registers when there's the challenge of housing, again, clean drinking water, infrastructure, economic development, opportunity, internet conductivity, educational outcomes. I mean, the terrible tragedies around youth suicide and addictions. Something like this, as amazing as it sounds, and rightfully so, barely registers in those communities, you know. And this is not a blanket statement about every community. Just saying that, that we're trying to be sensitive to where people are coming from and where the communities are coming from, you know, this might be too much for those communities to take on. So how do we support them? How do we provide the supports for their governance or for their leaders, to feel confident that this major initiative isn't going to steamroll their communities and destroy their culture and their way of life? That's why it's so important to have this meaningful discussion. And this, yeah, this this collaborative engagement and empathetic discussion where, you know, we understand where they're coming from, so that we can bring that into our work.

Jessica Vandenberghe: 53:51

And so Steve, I just want to tie it back a little bit to this idea of truth and conciliation or truth and reciprocity, and what folks can do in their everyday life to contribute to calls to action and shifting things in a positive way. I know how you can contribute. As an engineer, you've talked a little bit about that, and how you are living and breathing some of these ideas into your company. But as a general public person, or advice you would give your kids or your neighbours, what are your thoughts around what folks can do to help with the calls to action.

Steven Vaivada: 54:27

So in Canada, we have two histories. There's the non-Indigenous history of Canada, which starts back in, you know, when countries confederate and maybe slightly before that, right. And that's where you hear what a lot of people say like, you know, my family homestead has been here for 170 years. I'm generalizing a bit here, I don't mean to, but it's sort of our narrative that we have as a country is this one history. . .. . .and then there's the Indigenous history of Canada, which goes back 10,000 years, you know. In our Blackfoot stories, have this amazing way o telling the tale of these many many years going back so far. It's amazing to hear, it's a long story that we have that we transfer down from generation to generation. You know, we need to bring those two histories together. That's, I think, where we're going with reconciliation with these calls to action. We talk about education. Even with sports, you know, I just love some of these, these calls to action around sports, and where we can come together and, and create a sense of unity, you know, or community, or that we have this shared interest. You know, it's, it's funny that, you know, hockey is our national sport, but it can be the scene of so much violence between our communities, it's, it's often, you know, very frightening, but I feel like, we would all be better served if we got on the same wavelength, if we spoke the same language and referenced the same things. You're seeing, when those two histories collide, there might be an awakening, or there might be a conflict. You know, you're seeing these, these statues come down. You're seeing the history books being opened up and being explored and plumbed in the depths of, of our country being kind of measured. You know, I would say that as like a person that's very hopeful and positive, we would all benefit, by that merging of the histories of having a common story as a country and, and as people just trying to be positive and be the positive actors we want to be. So you know, it's a, it's a simple thing to say. But it's extremely difficult, because it challenges your stereotypes, it brings this idea of understanding and listening and challenging your own story, as a Canadian, or as a, even as an Indigenous person, right, you can be challenged. And so, you know, I just like to say that if you're doing that, if you're going through this experience, you're not alone. I certainly support you and support anybody who's going through this effort. You know, initiatives like this podcast, I think, are amazingly helpful. And if it only helps one person, that's enough, right, and we need to do this again, and again, and again. And maybe we'll, that next time be two people and then five people. And we'll have this moment in the future where more often than not, we're speaking about the same country, we're speaking about the same history. And I think that's maybe a far-flung future where reconciliation has come to realize its potential, but I think it's closer than we think. I'm so grateful for you both to be putting in the work, you know, this power of narrative and telling these stories that's going to get us to that future where we're speaking about the same history, we're sharing the same country, and it is no longer this split history of Canada, where we're able to kind of navigate the future together.

George Lee: 58:03

I think we always forget how close things can be. Because we have that, because we work on things so gradually. Like I've always been, until you actually said those words, I was always thinking of this as I think I even used the term earlier on, you know, after I'm long gone, maybe something will happen. Well, maybe that's the wrong attitude, because things, the way history works. In my non-academic understanding of history, there are long periods of hardly anything that we see really happening, and then boom, change comes. You know, the, like, look what happened with with the breakup of the USSR, for example, is a good example of that. Really, things were happening over a long period of time. But when the change started to happen, it was really rapid. So maybe there are, as you say, maybe it is closer than we we sometimes feel it is,

Jessica Vandenberghe: 58:57

I think it is too cuz you see little sparks trying to light, like we see the the Indigenous people trying to unify, but they're just still trying to work out their vision and, and what it is when the country pauses that they want to say and how to get from here to there. And there's folks on the settler side, and the government's saying, We want to do something, we want to do something, we just don't know what to do! Like, Iust tell us what to do. And we'll do it. And there's people just. . .. . .I think the kindling is coming. People are coming, people are interested, they want to hear the conversations. They just need some safe places to bounce around ideas and make sure they get their context right and the words right. And then the conversations will start happening. I think we are closer than you think.

Steven Vaivada: 59:41

You speak to it very well where we are. I think we are that close where it's, it doesn't serve us to be negative or kind of lying in the past. I think the positive future is where I hope to spend more of my time and my thought and I I have to, because to you know, even the the small challenges I've had in my life, being Indigenous or being non- Indigenous, when it comes to working in our communities or being accepted in my community, and that's never been an issue. But having parents coming from different worlds has, has given me a lot of texture to my life. And I think I hope to share it and I hope other people can, can make meaning of it and take it and and say, you know, That's something that I think is going to help, help me, and understand this situation. You know, it's just one person at a time. That's all we can do

Jessica Vandenberghe: 1:00:39

It is, and I know, for my kids, as well as your kids, Steve, that likely,they're the ones who are already asking questions. Like I know, my ,my daughter stood up in our class one day, I forget what they were talking about in social studies. But she says, what about the Mtisp eople? What would they think in this situation? We have chatted about them. And she's challenging already in her social studies classes in junior high, right? And I'm sure your kids are the And I know one of the things that when people ask me, Well, same. what can I do today? What can I do today? I say, start the conversation at your kitchen table. Talk with your family and talk with your friends and just start talking about it. Just bring it up. And then, and then you don't know where you're going to head but at least you're creating the safe and comfortable places where we can chat about those things.

George Lee: 1:01:28

Steve, thank you so much for this. It has, it has been just a really fruitful conversation. And I hope it ripples through our listeners as we move forward. And it's been fascinating. I know that it's really, it's really helped me understand more about the many issues we face as a nation. And it hasn't bogged me down. It's given me hope so, so thank you.

Jessica Vandenberghe: 1:01:55

Thanks so much, Steve.

Steven Vaivada: 1:01:57

Thanks for Thanks, Jessica.

George Lee: Unsettled: 1:02:16

Journeys in Truth and Conciliation is a production of Features West Studios in Edmonton, Alberta. Cohosts Jessica Vandenberghe and me, George Lee. Music written and performed by Kevin John, a member of the Kyuquot/Cheklesath First Nation on Vancouver Island. Logo conceived and designed by Corinne Riedel and Sandy Brown Van Damme. You can find us on Spotify, Apple, Stitcher, Google, and other major platforms. Remember to visit and like our Facebook page. Many thanks to our guest, Steven Vaivada. Be good to each other, stay healthy, and, air quotes alert, "see ya" next time.